GCIS Transcript of SABC Interview with President Thabo Mbeki
following the State of the Nation Address - SABC2, 20:00, Sunday 11 February 2007
WITH PRESIDENT MBEKI FOLLOWING THE STATE OF THE NATION ADDRESS
Mgabadeli: Good evening and welcome to this SABC News special broadcast on
SABC 2. My name is Siki Mgabadeli. Tonight we debate and tackle some of the key
issues that arose out of the State of the Nation address. Our special guest this
evening is the President of the Republic of South Africa, Thabo Mbeki, to help
us explore and examine the vision he has set out for South Africa to both Houses
of Parliament just a few days ago. Mr. President, thank you very much.
Thabo Mbeki: Thanks, Siki.
Siki Mgabadeli: With me on
this broadcast is of course my colleague and the SABC's political correspondent,
Miranda Strydom, to help me put some of the questions that you South Africans
would like to put to the President.
Miranda Strydom: Good evening
and thank you very much from me Miranda. I just want to kick off immediately with
the President, looking at a very honest assessment, Mr. President, since 1994
the overarching emphasis has been on poverty. Are we really making an impact,
particularly if you look at the question of income poverty?
Thabo Mbeki: I'm sure we are. But as you would have seen in the State of the
Nation address we are raising this issue of doing some work to ensure that we
have an integrated anti-poverty campaign. Which means, if I can put it in its
simplest form, that we really need to be able to track the individual households,
with as mother, father, four children and ask: What is happening? What's your
level of poverty in terms of income, in terms of assets and so on? Plus an important
issue - To the extent that they may depend on social grants, is there anything
that can be done to get them out of dependence into employment?
So we will
do that because we want to make sure that we are able to estimate properly what
sort of impact we are having on poverty, in order to institute whatever measures
might be necessary to accelerate. I'm absolutely certain that since 1994 lots
of people have come out of those poverty levels.
Well, let's talk about some of the things that are being done or could be done
to look into all of those issues that you have raised, Mr. President. There seems
to be a general concern about our international trade balance, we're definitely
not exporting enough, and that is something that has been recognised. Yet this
is an area, of course, of massive growth potential and an area where jobs could
really be created in certain industries. What are we doing about that?
Thabo Mbeki: What's happening in terms of our international trade balance,
this balance of payments deficit, is a result really of the growth in the South
African economy. It's an old phenomenon in fact, whereby when the South African
economy grows at certain high rates, it is affected by the capacity of the South
African economy to produce capital goods. So in the end when you have to open
a new factory you have got to import the machinery. So we are getting that sort
What we have to do is to concentrate on further development
of the capital goods sector, for one thing. You would have noticed that we mentioned
this in the State of the Nation address. If you take the infrastructure programs
of the state-owned enterprises, whether it's Transnet or Eskom, the expansion
programs are going to require a lot of equipment. So we are saying why can't we
take advantage of that to encourage further growth of our capital goods sector,
and we think we can.
There are other areas. We are the world's main producer
of platinum and there's no particular reason why we can't work on plans with the
platinum companies to ensure that as they dig out more platinum and process it,
a lot of the equipment needed would be domestically produced.
But of course
there's the other part to this story, which is the competitiveness of what we
are producing in international markets. Again that's the matter which has been
raised quite repeatedly about whether the currency is overvalued, which makes
South African goods uncompetitive. For that reason, and partly also to address
the volatility of the currency, you'll see that we said that we must look at the
relationship between the exchange rate, inflation and so on to see what impact
we can have on that.
Siki Mgabadeli: Ja. Particularly, Mr. President,
on the exchange rate and the volatility that we're seeing there, barring an intervention
on the monetary side where the Reserve Bank acts, is there anything that we can
do? Isn't that necessarily a market thing, market forces impacting on that?
Thabo Mbeki: That's one of the things we are looking at. You see, the relationship
among these macroeconomic variables - the exchange rate, the rate of inflation,
interest rates, budget deficit and all of that - to see whether there's a way
in which we can impact on the totality of those aggregates together. Indeed there
are some ideas that it isn't necessary always to use what is a blunt instrument,
interest rates, that you could come at this matter in a more targeted way. That's
what we've got to look at. In fact we have started looking at that question and
I'm quite sure later this year we'll be able to say something about that.
Strydom: So President, I know you've been engaging say with the Harvard economists
and local economists. Are some of these questions
or what are some of the
suggestions that are being considered, based on especially what the Harvard economists
have said with regard to reviewing some of our macroeconomic policies, would it
be part of this?
President Thabo Mbeki: That would certainly be
part of it, yes. This particular matter of the impact of the exchange rate on
the competitiveness of our manufacturers, is indeed one of the issues that's arisen,
and indeed the question I was mentioning just now that it may very well be that
if for instance you alter the liquidity requirements of banks in order to impact
on credit extension, that that might be a better way of coming at it, rather than
just responding globally with higher interest rates. So indeed these matters are
very much part of that discussion with these economists, both domestic and international,
that the government has been engaging with.
Siki Mgabadeli: One
of the key ways of course of fighting poverty and rolling it back would be looking
at job creation, and something to be celebrated over the past 13 years
course over the last three years what we've seen is one and a half million jobs
being created, and largely because of some of the post-1994 reforms that have
been put in place. But there's an argument, Mr. President, that while jobs have
been created in some sectors, some have been lost in other sectors. To what extent
are we reviewing our industrial policy? You have said that's been completed. What
interventions can we make in the sectors where jobs have been lost?
Thabo Mbeki: The restructuring in certain sectors of the economy will take
place, necessarily because of the development of technology. So it's not as though
for all time you can maintain particular proportions between capital and labour,
because technological development will change that. It is a fact that there would
have been job losses in some sectors, but I don't think that you can attribute
that to all sorts of other things that exclude the impact of technology. I think
that's the first thing.
But with regard to further expansion of the economy,
we have said many things, perhaps we may come to them just now, but in terms of
industrial policy we had identified various sectors which we believe are growth
sectors. I'm sure you're familiar with these. We have spoken about biofuels, about
tourism, about reducing the cost of inputs in the chemical industry, in the metal
industry, and all these import parity pricing questions, to reduce the cost of
inputs and therefore make these sectors more competitive.
policy framework has been completed, and,, having looked at everything, we go
back to those sectors - chemicals, wood and paper, metalworking, tourism etcetera.
And we say that we need to institute systems and mechanisms to make sure that
we do indeed encourage growth in those sectors. So that's the process in which
we now are, to spell out these specific steps - step number one, step number two
- and not just to say this is a group of steps you must take, but how you sequence
them. What tax incentives do you need and all that kind of thing. We're in that
process, but having identified these specific sectors where this must happen.
Siki Mgabadeli: Mr. President, some reports suggest that with the
current rate of job creation and the current growth rate that we would need to
aim higher than 6% in order to absorb more than the one-fifth of that number that
is being created in terms of jobs. Your response to that?
Thabo Mbeki: I would agree with that. Indeed I have been trying to insist
that we should say a minimum of 6%. We shouldn't suggest that 6% is a cut-off
point as it were. I do think that we need to achieve a growth rate that's higher
than 6% and sustained over time, and we're got to work at it. I think it's correct
to say we should indeed aim for more than higher 6% growth.
Strydom: Mr. President, we're celebrating these jobs that are being created,
half a million a year. But there's one area that we seem to be failing quite dismally,
which is that of 'de-racialising' the economy. The figures you spoke about, 5%
on the JSE and 27% in top management, there must be something wrong. What is going
President Thabo Mbeki: What we are reflecting in those
figures is the upper end in terms of social development. Below that I think the
figures would be somewhat different. If you talk for instance about the growth
of the small to medium business sector, I would think that you would see a much
bigger rate of deracialisation. And quite certainly I'm sure also if you looked
at skilled workers and lower to middle management levels, you would have a greater
rate of de-racialisation. It may be that we are not moving as fast as we should,
but I think change is taking place.
I think you can see this generally
in society. Intake at universities and then throughput out of the universities
into the job market will impact on questions like this. Black economic empowerment
from the government's side - I'm not talking about private sector black economic
empowerment - from the government's side black economic empowerment is about creation
of new economic actors, new people who add value to the economy, and there are
many thousands who are part of this. They're not on the Johannesburg Securities
Exchange - as I say, we were reflecting on the upper end, companies that get listed
on the JSE and people who will sit as CEOs and that kind of thing. But below that
I think there's a much better pace of change.
Siki Mgabadeli: Sure,
sure. Let's go back to the macroeconomic issues, and let's talk a little bit about
regulated or your administered prices. In the past you've said that this is something
we need to look at to make sure that it doesn't stifle growth and investment potential
here in this country. What are we doing about them?
President Thabo Mbeki:
The Cabinet started discussing this in detail during this past year, 2006. Already
some proposals have been put to Cabinet regarding administered prices. I'm quite
sure that not terribly long from now we'll be able to say what it is that we are
doing about it. So we are certainly looking at it. It's not necessarily a simple
For instance, where you have the electricity regulator, who would,
bearing in mind the cost of electricity to the consumer, and taking into account
inflation rates etcetera, perhaps say one thing. In the meantime we are saying
that Eskom must invest heavily to expand its production capacity. But what you
say on the other hand is to deny them the resources to be able to do that. So
it's not that easy to address the matter. From the point of view of the consumer,
yes, of course: Please I want to have a lower price of electricity. But you must
also be able to say that there must be electricity to supply to the consumer,
and you need these very large investments, unless you are going to say the company
must just depend on borrowing to finance that, rather than internally generated
But we are indeed working on this, and I really do hope that not
too long from now we should be able to say what we are doing about it.
Strydom: President, I just want to look at the question of skills, that's
an area where you've talked quite at length about. And of course with all the
government's programs and projects in especially your infrastructure projects
that [unclear], has there been any sort of greater moves say from, for example
the Freedom Front, who came with their 90 retired
have there been more people
coming through with these kind of offers?
President Thabo Mbeki:
People have indeed come forward with offers and we've taken them up. In terms
the local government there would have been at least 225people, something like
that. These are professionals, fully skilled, fully experienced and so on who
have been taken in and spread around the municipalities. Yes indeed that's happened.
But on the skills front I think the most important initiative, really,
is the re-capitalisation of the further education and training colleges, and everything
associated with that. This is where the kinds of skills that are required in the
economy are going to come from. We want to push that program very hard, and that's
why we also said that we will provide bursaries for young people who come from
poor families, who are unable to access these colleges, so that we make sure that
they are taken in properly.
But of course that also requires that we link
up properly with industry, because part of the problem in the past has been that
an FET college training people as electrical technicians has equipment to train
them that is 15 years old. You train them on that equipment, they get competent
on the equipment and when they go to work they find that they were trained on
old technology which nobody ever uses again. So I'm saying that that is a critically
important matter, that we link up properly with industry so that the people who
qualify from the FET colleges are qualified in terms of actual demand.
other matter of course that we clearly have to pay closer attention to is the
functioning of the SETAs, to ensure that the resources they have are put to really
good use. You've got this current case of one of the SETAs having put money, over
200 million rand I understand in a company that's just been put under curatorship.
But why did they have 200 million rand in the bank? Why was it not being used
to train people? It's clear that we have to look at the SETAs a bit more closely.
As you know government doesn't run SETAs. It is a matter for industry and the
unions and so on, to intervene a little bit more vigorously, to make sure that
they also play their role in terms of this skills challenge.
And staying with skills, are you happy with the progress that JIPSA is making?
Thabo Mbeki: Yes, I think they have made very good progress. I think everybody
now is agreed on the skills that are in short supply. It was on that basis that
it was possible to engage universities, to say to them, here are the skills that
are required at these levels of education - engineering, financial management,
whatever. How do we respond to this?
So I think that JIPSA has indeed been
very good. It's also enabled us to take advantage of opportunities in the rest
of the world that we have not been taking advantage of, because since '94 many
countries have offered us places and scholarships at institutions of higher learning.
But because we didn't have a good handle on what it is that we actually need,
there are many of these that we didn't take up.
But we'll be able to do
that now because with the skills we have here the capacity to educate isn't enough
to meet these urgent needs now. So it's very good indeed that we have access to
other training institutions elsewhere in the world.
Mr. President, since 2002 government has been engaging on this issue of providing
a comprehensive social security program. Again in the State of the Nation on Friday
you talked about it. We know you said that we'll get more details in the budget
with Finance Minister Trevor Manuel. But can you put this into perspective? Will
it in some way address some of the issues that people have brought up in terms
of a basic income grant?
President Thabo Mbeki: I think you know
that as government we have said we don't support this idea of a basic income grant.
But we need to be able to ensure that our social security system does protect
the vulnerable, and has other impacts.
So you are quite correct. I did
say that the Minister of Finance will address this matter more in his budget speech,
which he will do. But, in a sense it's related to the issue of poverty that we
were talking about. You have many interventions which address social security
- whether it's retirement schemes or old age pensions or unemployment insurance,
and so on.
We are saying that one of the things that needs to happen is
to take the basket of these things and then look at all of them together. There
are health interventions that we are making, free healthcare etcetera. Here is
this totality of these things. Do they make for a comprehensive social security
system? Indeed they may. If for instance you get into a situation where your unemployment
insurance fund is in surplus, and with more job creation and so on, less people
losing jobs, this surplus increases: what do you do with it? You can't just keep
it in a bank account.
But if you integrate that unemployment insurance
fund within this comprehensive social security system there are certain things
that you can do. And that's the reason we are saying for instance we must within
this context even look at the question of subsidisation of first entry jobs, as
part of the job creation strategy. So that it's not just social security, but
let it also play a role with regard to reduction of unemployment. But you need
that integration in the whole system.
So in particular the National Treasury,
the Departments of Social Development, Labour and Health, are the ones interacting
in a most intense way on this matter. And indeed, it's not an issue that can just
be resolved exclusively in government - it must come to NEDLAC.
just say: R100 basic income for whatever, and that's the end of the matter. What
about the health of people? They can't finance health from R100. What about retirement?
They can't finance retirement from that. What about indigents?
So it needs
a targeted approach, not a blanket approach. We don't think it would work. So
we will go this route, which is more targeted, more precise, and as I was saying
with regard to poverty, we need to be able to say what is the condition of this
particular family, is it indigent? How many people are employed. How many people
need to be trained? How many are on social grants? How many children are there
at school? Can they afford the uniforms? We need to be able to get to that and
this idea of a basic income grant is not going to get you anywhere near there.
You would in fact be abandoning people under the illusion that you were handing
out R100 to everybody a month.
Miranda Strydom: So President, when
I mean once all these departments have had a look at this, when do
you anticipate that this will be implemented now?
President Thabo Mbeki:
Well we have to consult with our social partners in this matter. It can't just
be a matter of government. So I'm afraid I couldn't make a prediction, because
it's going to depend on how long this engagement takes place. But it has to take
place, because it's quite a major intervention in terms of the national arrangements
with regard to really impacting on the quality of life of the people. We want
to speed it up.
This is in fact an old decision to do it, but it's taken
time even to get to where we are now, where the Minister of Finance can make some
more definitive announcements as we tried to do in the State of the Nation address,
regarding what are some of the principle elements that we think should go into
such a comprehensive social security system.
Siki Mgabadeli: Just
looking at one of the elements around this social security system and what might
come into it. COSATU responding to the subsidising of first entry people, jobseekers
or people who are low wage earners. Their concern was that that might create two
wage classes, which then business might engage with differently. Are we not concerned
that one creates a separate wage class, where if the guy's being subsidised why
should I give him an increase?
President Thabo Mbeki: We have to
address this matter. Yes indeed new jobs are being created, but we as we create
more jobs more people are encouraged to enter the labour market. So we have to
address that matter, to say that the economy needs to be able to suck in these
new entrants, and say how we will do that?
Take the initiative under the
leadership of the Deputy President to identify unemployed graduates, interact
with the corporations to say here are these people, and for the companies to send
us information as to their job needs. We've merged those, and already you've got
something like 890 formerly unemployed graduates who are now employed.
is that a second tier market? What do you do, do you just leave it? You can't.
So people might very well have better ideas of what it is that we need to do to
facilitate the entry into actual work of these new entrants to the labour market.
We'd be perfectly happy to look at that. But global experience would not suggest
to me that there's anything particularly wrong with facilitating entry into work
of new entrants who might otherwise find it difficult. And what do companies do?
This is one pool, do we want to increase production, do we increase employed people,
or do we just get more modern machinery? Then they take the route of more modern
machinery. They've got a profit responsibility. But if people have got other ideas
about how to facilitate access to jobs by these new entrants, by all means let
them table them. But we believe that this is one of the means and measures, one
of the interventions we can use to achieve that.
Mr. Mbeki , one of the issues is of course the social security tax that's being
put forward, and we know that South Africa is always labelled with this non-saving
thing, that we don't save enough, we spend too much. And the retirement sector
and the pension fund sector says that they are the one conduit for that type of
saving. Would this not discourage those savings?
President Thabo Mbeki:
The point you're raising is very important. Indeed we do need to increase the
rate of saving in the South African economy. And therefore we would have to be
careful that whatever we do doesn't have the opposite impact. We ask people to
save. So a poor person like Siki Mgabadeli saves. Then when she reaches pensionable
age and she's entitled to a statutory old age pension, we see how much money you
have saved for your retirement and deduct it from your old age pension. It doesn't
make sense. It means that you are better off not saving, because then you would
have access to a full state old age pension.
It's clearly wrong. So you've
got to change things like that. Even with regard to tax we've got to see what
impact that has on savings, and balanced that with the fact that it is important
that as many South Africans as possible should have access to social security.
We need to look at the balance all of these things, including the totality of
the tax system. You can't just say here's a tax tomorrow and not look at the general
impact of the taxation system relative to the GDP and all of that. So we would
look at it bearing in mind among other things that requirement about savings,
but also bearing in mind that you do need that as many South Africans as possible
should have access to social security. You can't just kind of leave them to the
Miranda Strydom: President, I just want to move onto another
issue, you spent almost
17% talking about crime in the State
of the Nation address. One of the things that one thinks about immediately is
this whole issue of the FNB ad campaign. Many people are asking the question,
the president has something called a presidential business working group. We would
assume therefore that in that presidential working group the matters of crime
do get discussed. It also raises the question whether this means then that either
government and business haven't yet come to a common understanding on how to tackle
crime, or the business community itself is disunited on this issue. How do you
read what has happened? Because that has just come out in the media all of a sudden.
President Thabo Mbeki: Well I can't talk for the FNB. I know that
they've asked to see me. I will see them. I don't know what they'll say but I
will see them. The matter was raised at the Presidential Big Business Working
Group. We had a meeting in Cape Town sometime last year. They raised this matter
quite sharply, and indeed said that despite the continuing engagement between
business and government they thought that we needed to take that a step further.
We agreed to that, and indeed immediately a process of engagement started
between the Ministry of Safety and Security and the police, and particularly Business
Against Crime. Corporate leaders said that even in terms of intervention, they
would want more senior people from business to be involved, including CEOs, and
we welcomed that. On the government's side we make sure that ministers are involved.
So indeed there is certainly engagement at that level, and very, very constructive
with everybody focused on this matter. As to why particular elements of business
would want to extricate themselves from a collective business intervention, I
don't know. But as I say, regarding the FNB, I was told they want to see me. Maybe
they'll explain why they would have thought it is better for them to act on their
own outside of the rest of the business sector.
So you were surprised by this whole ad campaign issue?
Mbeki: To the extent that it said, we need to put pressure on the President
to act on crime, it seemed to me to reflect in part that perhaps we have not been
loud and vocal enough in terms of what actually is being done. In reality, if
you've got the practicality of what's being done - in terms of increasing police,
taking police officers out of administration into police stations, your more experienced
ones, the regular annual expenditures on policing every year, all manner of interventions,
every State of the Nation we address this matter. I would imagine that anybody
who was actually following what was happening in South Africa would have seen
that there's no point at which the government has acted in a manner that it did
not recognise that this indeed is a serious problem in the country. So to tell
the President that it's a serious problem - well I don't know, maybe people have
got money and time to do that. But it's not saying anything new, which is why
big business in its direct engagement with government said, let us look at the
specific things that need to be done and we agreed very readily to that. That
is why we are having the engagement we have with them.
Are you concerned that this might compromise that engagement?
Thabo Mbeki: No, no, it won't. It won't, no I'm quite certain that the bulk
of big business is very, very much committed to this partnership, and indeed I'm
sure we will engage. You see, and it's not anything peculiarly South African.
If you look around the world, countries that face problems of serious crime like
South Africa take the same route. No, I'm quite certain that it won't compromise
the cooperation between government and big business, certainly not from the government's
side. And I'm quite sure certainly from the overwhelming majority of businesspeople.
Siki Mgabadeli: Mr. President, when one thinks State of the Nation
one starts to think social cohesion. It is now almost 13 years into democracy,
how would you assess national reconciliation? Are we one South Africa?
Thabo Mbeki: Difficult question to answer. I would say no. That doesn't mean
that there hasn't been any progress. We need I, think, to move further to dismantle
this legacy of the past. Let's have more integrated human settlements, so you
can see that black and white live together, things like that.
to integration of schools, I hear regular complaints. For instance even where
you have schools with relatively well mixed black and white children, the school
governing bodies are not composed in this manner, which has an impact on what
kind of education is then given to the children.
So I think that we would
need to make more progress with regard all of these things, further de-racialisation
of management systems, more black people in parts of the economy that add value.
All of these things are needed, I think, in order to be able to say we've moved
significantly forward with regard to that sense of a common national identity.
There is progress. Surveys say that the majority of people, if you ask them their
first point of identity, say I am a South African, and then there might be something
else after that. So there would be a stronger sense of national identity, but
I think we do need to move more on questions of gender, questions of race, questions
of human settlements, questions of job patterns, really to be able to say there's
better coherence in terms of a sense of national identity.
President, if we can just move onto foreign policy now. We are now on the UN Security
Council, the non-permanent seat, but South Africa came in for heavy criticism.
Our inaugural vote on the Myanmar resolution, was that actually a wise idea in
President Thabo Mbeki: It was very correct. You see the
point that we were making there is that the Security Council has got a specific
mandate in terms of the UN Charter, and you can't just wilfully put on the agenda
of the Security Council any matter that you choose.
We demand that everybody
must respect international law, and the first body that breaks international law
is the Security Council. It is wrong. And I'm sure we will continue insist on
that, that the Security Council functions in a manner within a framework that's
defined by international law. It can't be the first one to break the law, and
put any matter on the agenda that it wishes. With regard to the Human Rights Council,
if you had taken that matter to the Security Council it would block the intervention
that the Human Rights Council can make on those human rights questions in Myanmar.
You might be satisfied that you've passed some resolution, quite illegally, at
the Security Council, feel satisfied and applaud and say I'm very happy. But you
actually block the possibility of this institution of the United Nations to intervene
to make a practical impact. No, it was extremely correct. We won't agree that
people can just do as they wish. The rule of law must apply even to the Security
Siki Mgabadeli: Mr. President, is having this seat just
nice to have? Can we really play a role particularly in the transformation of
President Thabo Mbeki: No it's not, I do not
believe that it's nice to have, I think it's very difficult and challenging to
have, because as you know there are many, many problems. The principle task of
the Security Council as we were talking just now, in terms of the UN Charter,
is international peace and security. You've got these massive problems of international
peace and security in the Middle East, a whole region in flames. We must be able
to say what is the Security Council doing to find a solution to these problems.
You've got the challenges on the African continent.
We have been saying
with regard to the matter of the restructuring of the Security Council that there
needs to be put in place a specific process, rather than to say, which is the
situation now, let everybody discuss. Let's put a system in place to discuss it.
So we should say, here is a body of 15 countries or whatever that will discuss
this matter, and must report back in 16 days or whatever. We'll continue to push
for that. But principally the task of the Security Council is international peace
and security. And I think the challenges that we have to respond to as a member
are really quite considerable.
Miranda Strydom: Of course South
Africa continues to play its role as an AU member on the issues of Somalia, Cote
d'Ivoire now [unclear]. But one area that South Africa continues to get criticised
on is that South Africa is quite lenient towards Zimbabwe. The last time we spoke
you said you're hoping for a dialogue, national dialogue. What's the progress
in that country, President?
President Thabo Mbeki: Perhaps again
we are not communicating effectively enough about this. We have consistently said
we are convinced that a solution to the problems of Zimbabwe lies with the people
When we entered into negotiations in this country in 1990,
we took the same position about ourselves. We said we don't want anybody from
the rest of the world to come and convene us to have negotiations, we'll convene
ourselves. We'll have those negotiations ourselves, we'll produce whatever outcome
we want as South Africans. It's the route we took and it was very wise and it
worked. The consequence of which is that what we agreed becomes owned by the people
of South Africa, we can't blame somebody else.
We've taken the same positions
with the Zimbabwe issue. Really that leadership has to get together, interact,
and as I've said we remain in contact with the government and the opposition party,
the parties now, to say to them it's your task, it's your responsibility, we will
support. We will always insist on this.
Siki Mgabadeli: Mr. President,
thank you very much for being in conversation with us this evening.
Thabo Mbeki: Thank you very much.